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[00:00:00] Welcome to ADHD Gathering
Welcome to ADHD Gathering. I’m your host, Ying Deng, also known as ADHD Asian girl. I’m an award-winning ADHD coach, certified meditation teacher, and featured expert in Self Magazine. Your ADHD brain is not a problem to fix. It’s an ecosystem to understand. Let’s explore it
[00:00:17] Meet Ryan Barrett
together.
[00:00:18] Ying: Welcome back to ADHD Gathering, and today I have a special guest, Ryan here. Ryan, please introduce yourself
[00:00:24] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Thank you so much for having me on. my name is Ryan Baker Barrett, and professionally, I’m a BCBA, Board Certified Behavior Analyst, which I think a lot of people associate with autism and applied behavior analysis. but I am working specifically with, ADHD teens and adults. I have ADHD myself, and then so do my two boys, excited to connect and talk a little bit about our experiences.
[00:00:50] Ying: First question is what is behavioral, analyst? I saw it, , but I have no clue what does it mean? How does it come into play in the care systems for ADHD folks? ’cause usually we talk about therapists or coaches or psychiatrists.
So What is your role in the ecosystem? Yeah
[00:01:08] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah. So I am doing executive function coaching and ADHD coaching, in my role as a BCBA. when we look at maybe the traditional insurance-based, ABA care, we would do an assessment, typically functional behavior assessment
where our kind of approach would be taking a look at what’s happening within the classroom, the home, the environment that might be contributing to some of the behaviors. What skills can we teach and help maybe some of that symptomology shift? and then I think where some of the controversy tends to be is does that process encourage masking?
Does that process encourage shame around neurodivergence? And so I,
[00:01:55] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:55] Ryan Baker-Barrett: as someone with ADHD, parenting two boys with ADHD, mindful of that process and making sure, that we take all of that into consideration. so as we go on and talk, I’ll talk a little bit about behavior analysis and the overlap with acceptance and commitment therapy. And even though I’m not a licensed therapist, the science of both are connected,
[00:02:18] Masking and Choice
[00:02:18] Ying: I love that you have the awareness of whether it’s teaching skills and whether it’s masking, and I start to think about unmasking or masking as coping mechanisms, and there’s the healthy end of coping mechanisms, and there is the more strict, less helpful version I view masking kind of the same way, that sometimes masking is necessary, especially for folks in the marginalized community, masking sometimes is required and necessary. So it’s more of how can we be mindful of if this is serving us and if this is intentionally something we’re choosing.
[00:02:58] Ryan Baker-Barrett: I appreciated you hearing that, right? ‘
Cause, so many things in life are on a continuum or like a quadrant, right?
[00:03:05] Ying: Quadrant?
[00:03:06] Ryan Baker-Barrett: yeah.
[00:03:07] Ying: Yeah
[00:03:07] Ryan Baker-Barrett: thinking through those situations as having an intention an awareness, a mindfulness and choosing, proactively choosing am I intentionally going to mask? Am I, not going to be masking and show up as I am?
[00:03:23] Ying: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah
[00:03:24] Ryan Baker-Barrett: discussion
[00:03:25] Ying: It’s complex ’cause sometimes folks are in situations that they don’t have the agency or power to choose. if the masking is expected or they don’t have a choice to unmask, people tend to have a negative association with masking.
[00:03:38] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah
[00:03:39] Ying: Yeah Speaking of masking, you
[00:03:41] Ryan’s ADHD Diagnosis Story
[00:03:41] Ying: said you–
[00:03:42] Ryan Baker-Barrett: getting into my own background right I was diagnosed at
[00:03:46] Ying: Yeah
[00:03:46] Ryan Baker-Barrett: then working in a helping profession field you wouldn’t expect that I would go so long without recognizing that what was interesting for me is some of the things that tipped me off to my own diagnosis were was just the really slow process of realizing how much connection or similarsimilarity I had to the kids that I was working with we sometimes I think even silo it’s just autism or it’s just ADHD and more and more right We’re seeing kids maybe starting with an autism diagnosis and then it becomes an ADHD diagnosis or it starts as an ADHD diagnosis and then it becomes an autism or or like I’m not sure which one it is or maybe it’s all of it and just appreciating that there is some ambiguity sometimes in diagnosis so anyway I was working predominantly with kids on the autism spectrum you know but started to recognize some ways that their experiences were not too dissimilar from my own and then clinicians would call attention to it sometimes and one of the places that really stands out was in the program that I worked at that time They would talk about sticky shifting right That maybe kids on the spectrum or kids with ADHD have sticky shifting just meaning that there’s an abrupt transition a cognitive transition right We’re going from topic A to topic B or you’ve gotta go immediately from science to PE or science to English right that can be a challenging cognitive transition right and it just made sense to me and never questioned I was like Oh yeah that makes sense right
[00:05:21] Ying: Yeah.
[00:05:21] Ryan Baker-Barrett: As I got more and more in the field I’m starting to see these connections then I went through divorce and so a lot of the ADHD traits really become apparent You’re going through a major life transition and so I started seeking therapy and my therapist was the first person who said Have you ever considered if you had ADHD And I was like Me No I got good grades in school and then He was like talk to your mom So I was asking my mom did you ever feel like I was driven by a motor And she was like no but you were a handful as a toddler but it was maybe more things that you don’t think of as hyperactive a climber I could climb out of the crib and learn how to escape I would climb into the cupboards and throw dishes I would climb into everything And was very into gymnastics and constantly doing cartwheels and things But I think there’s also like an identity overlap as a gay man who as a child was very feminine I think I’ve defeminized a little bit growing up in conservative Mormon Utah but I think that maybe the attention was on the femininity the gymnastics the into dancing And so that was the focus It was never seen as oh is this hyperactive
[00:06:34] Ying: Yeah. that’s so interesting of like, yeah, if a child has multiple things that the surrounding community deem somewhat unusual, it depends on what they choose to focus on and what they choose to support or investigate or not support.
[00:06:52] Ryan Baker-Barrett: I think that’s how some of the early childhood hyperactivity may have been missed for me
[00:06:58] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:59] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Flashing forward to that same recommendation from the therapist she gave me a book to read because I was working at schools at the time I think she thought it would be a valuable book for me to read I don’t remember what the title of it was but it was a psychologist telling stories about kids that he had assessed and giving illustrations of this
[00:07:17] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:18] Ryan Baker-Barrett: At the time I was living in New Haven Connecticut and I was going to New York City. It’s a twohour train ride two and a half hours right And so I’m supposed to sit down like I’ve given myself the assignment on the way there and on the way home let me read this book and come to a conclusion do I have ADHD I’ll come back to what that experience was like in a minute so anyway fastforward right I’ve done my assignment with my therapist and she’s So what do you think do you have ADHD I was like Yes And she’s Oh great so you read the book And I was like no I never made it past like page fifteen but yes I am convinced I have ADHD And she’s if you didn’t read the book why do you think It’s guy is telling the story of what inattentive ADHD is like right This kid looking out the window who’s not getting instruction because they’re just in another world right And the psychologist tells a story of them sitting down with the child Tell me about what you’re thinking of when you’re looking out the window It’s Oh I was imagining right All the alphabet letters that my teacher was talking about were like trees and there are monkeys swinging from them it has this very vivid thing And I was like
[00:08:24] Ying: Imagination,
[00:08:25] Ryan Baker-Barrett: two and a half hours passed and I didn’t realize I had stopped reading the book and I’m just imagining this child’s world and thinking about that situation right And I always remember joking with people that I’m really good at rereading the beginning of a book and the end of the book right I start the book and then I want to know what happens so I read the end of the book but I can never sustain attention to get through the book
[00:08:47] Ying: so interesting.
[00:08:48] Ryan Baker-Barrett: I started to realize that maybe there was some ADHD playing in
[00:08:52] Sticky Shifting and Reading
[00:08:52] Ryan Baker-Barrett: there
[00:08:53] Ying: speaking of reading and sticky shifts, that’s one thing I realized only as an adult, that reading nonfiction is really difficult for me, ’cause my mind will go into I’m collecting information mode, and then in nonfiction, they actually tell stories. So my mind gets split into, I don’t know if I’m supposed to collect information and facts right now, or do I supposed to, get into the person’s world, imagine that story, imagine what it’s like.
[00:09:18] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah
[00:09:18] Ying: So I realized that’s why I can’t read nonfiction. When I read fiction, I know what I’m doing, like, I’m imagining. When I’m reading, lecture slides, I know it’s facts and, I’m getting facts It’s the sticky shifts. I like that term. I’m like, “Oh, wow, that’s where I get stuck.”
[00:09:33] Ryan Baker-Barrett: And that’s when I started to become aware of this time blindness lack of time awareness and I was like Oh my gosh That is so me like sitting down to do something right And people getting so upset as so many hours have passed And I’m like What are you talking about It’s only been a few minutes since you said Hey let’s get ready to go And then No it’s been I look at the clock I’m like Oh my gosh It’s 200 PM already I haven’t eaten lunch I haven’t gone to the bathroom since like this morning when I started the project And people online talking about those types of experiences of I forget to eat I forget to go to the bathroom because I’m so absorbed in whatever project
[00:10:12] Executive Function Roadmap
[00:10:12] Ryan Baker-Barrett: topic.
[00:10:13] Ying: Time blindness is part of executive function, and help parents and teens and adults with that piece, and you said you have a ecosystem map of executive function. So please share more about that. I’m really curious about it.
[00:10:26] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah in my field typically the process for developing an assessment would be very granular We have these assessments that might ask two hundred and fifty skillbased questions And it can be very overwhelming So I wanted to avoid that type of approach because for a clinician with ADHD I could never get through an assessment that detailed But also does that serve an ADHD population well to get that granular And I thought I need as a clinician what my kids need is a little bit more of that roadmap type of thing we’re not navigating a busy city so to speak we’re really navigating a lifelong trajectory and thinking of ADHD treatment as more of a crosscountry journey right I moved from Massachusetts to California so I identify with that very much my process of navigating was like what major stops am I making along the way Which roads highways am I taking Which general direction am I headed and I think that’s been valuable for me as a parent is thinking about okay here’s where my kid is now point A And to get to point B I don’t necessarily need every single little detail and so then thinking about the kids that I had been working with my own experience my kids experience right what are some of those more foundational things that people with ADHD are going to need right And so we talk a lot about maybe rejection sensitivity dysphoria And so my kids that roadmap of okay this rejection is going to land different so let’s build an awareness of that and some foundational skills around that right And with my sixyearold that might mean handling no a little bit better not continuing to nag and nag and nag when I say You can’t have yogurt right now whereas with my twelveyearold it’s getting a lot into the social aspects of it The this kid said XYZ and that was about me And it’s no that was about something else and through that reframe
[00:12:31] Ying: Yeah, so I’m hearing that there’s definitely the emotional regulation, managing the rejection sensitivity piece. I’m also curious about what other, foundational pieces are in there?
[00:12:41] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah so let’s older teens and adults talking a lot about our brain different for every person with ADHD right But like we don’t plan in maybe the neurotypical way And I often start backwards with my planning right I need to be at the doctor at 300 PM Okay And then I go Okay what time do I absolutely have to leave Okay
[00:13:05] Ying: Hmm
[00:13:06] Ryan Baker-Barrett: before I leave And then come back to this present moment and then execute the plan Whereas I think maybe a neurotytypical perperson just maybe start Okay I’m here now I need to get dressed and then I need to do this and then I need to do that
[00:13:21] Ying: Yeah, the planning piece. That makes sense.
[00:13:23] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Talking through not so much as use a planner and be rigid and stick to that but thinking through that the planning process may look different for you and that’s
[00:13:30] Parenting and Self Regulation
[00:13:30] Ryan Baker-Barrett: okay
[00:13:31] Ying: what are some ways that you help yourself, to self-regulate while, regulating your kids when all of you have ADHD, especially when there is, the power struggle or, the rejection sensitivity dysphoria in play you have to establish a boundary of, “No, we cannot have yogurt right now,” but the other side might be keep pushing it.
How do you work through those moments, and what truly help?
[00:13:54] Ryan Baker-Barrett: I started my company about two years ago. I felt so much pressure, right? I’m a person with ADHD, parenting kids with ADHD, running a business for people with ADHD. I cannot be dysregulated in public or people will, say you’re gonna teach me how to regulate my kids, and you can’t even keep yourself regulated.”
[00:14:14] Ying: It’s masking.
[00:14:15] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah.
[00:14:15] Ying: a masking.
[00:14:17] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Right now, realizing more and more like I’m out there preaching XYZ, but not always practicing that for myself. so saying, “You know what? It’s okay. I am not a regulated person. This is how I show up. This is what dysregulation looks like for me, and let me practice that out loud with you.” Right?
[00:14:38] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:39] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Take the strategies that I’m giving to parents, and show them what it looks like when I practice that for myself.” As opposed to can’t be dysregulated ever,” or, “Nobody will ever want to work with you.”
[00:14:51] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:52] Ryan Baker-Barrett: if my kid has a meltdown somewhere, like they’ll be, “Oh, like he obviously doesn’t know what he’s doing ’cause he can’t keep his kids regulated.” and being very transparent with parents when I work with them that there are going to be times where I start a session with you and I say, “My kid is having a really hard time right now, and so I may get a call from school, and I may need
[00:15:13] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:13] Ryan Baker-Barrett: jump off this call.”
[00:15:15] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:15] Ryan Baker-Barrett: I have an attendance policy that you can’t no-show me. However, as a parent of a kid with ADHD, I need to accommodate and be understanding With my adults, I also remind them there are gonna be times where I miss an appointment. and we’re gonna have a mutual understanding of how we work through that.
[00:15:34] Ying: Hmm.
[00:15:34] Ryan Baker-Barrett: attendance policy,
[00:15:35] Ying: We will be right back. First, if today’s episode is resonating with you, I’m available for one-on-one coaching for ADHD adults who are ready to stop forcing and start building a life that actually flows with their brain. My approach is mindful, strategic, and multidimensional because you are more than a to-do list.
If you’re curious, there’s a link in the show notes to book a free discovery call. I would love to connect.
[00:15:59] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Trying to realistic with myself same way that I expect clients to be realistic with themselves that You don’t have to be perfect. You show up as you are. You show up as the human you are. even thinking some of the traditional kind of behavior parent training that we would do, it’s very regimented and skills-focused. parent do this when this happens. if your kid has an outburst, here’s how you regulate and coach. And I always start my conversations with parents about you’re a human on that side too, and you have your own experiences that you’re bringing to the table too, and so it may not always be right when X happens, execute plan Y. you may have very real human experiences in that process. Some of the coaching that we’re gonna do is working with that as well, right?
Because you can’t parent you borrow the oxygen mask on the airplane thing. If that oxygen mask is not on for yourself, you can’t assist others show up as you are. If you yelled at your child today, I get it. I yelled at my child today too, and show up as you are, and let’s work through that.
[00:17:09] Ying: I really like that. being real and compassionate parenting has to be the hardest job. if you fail just a little bit, there’s so much shame around it of like, “Oh my God, I yelled,” or… I’m not a parent, I only have a dog, but sometimes I yell at my dog.
So I’m like, “Jade, you… Why are you coming to the house with dirty paws?” We talked about this before.
[00:17:30] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah
[00:17:31] Ying: But hey, I could feel, my emotions arise, and I may not be dysregulated in those moments,
[00:17:38] Shame and Self Talk
[00:17:38] Ryan Baker-Barrett: yeah. And as people with ADHD, we feel shame the context of shame and ADHD, is unique to us in some ways, the diagnosis ADHD back in the day was lack… I can’t remember the technical term, right? But it was something along the lines of you don’t have the moral stuff that other people have, you say, “I have ADHD.” “Oh, so you’re just lazy.” “
[00:18:00] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:01] Ryan Baker-Barrett: That’s not true.
[00:18:02] Ying: what, stories you’re helping yourself or your kids or your clients to tell related to their ADHD? What is a, framing that you tend to go to?
[00:18:12] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah. it’s an interesting question ’cause tried to approach the assessment that I do from a slightly different lens, I think of my assessment is as more of an invitation to the kiddo or the adult, strengths-based approaches but deeper what I mean by that is, can ask someone what are you good at?” I think it’s illustrated when I ask parents or adults What accomplishments are you most proud they’re going into an assessment thinking like, we’re gonna talk about like everything that I’m bad at, everything that’s wrong with me.
[00:18:43] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:44] Ryan Baker-Barrett: When I think about the recent five clients that I’ve worked with, only one of them has ever answered that question.
[00:18:50] Ying: Mm.
[00:18:51] Ryan Baker-Barrett: of ADHD, right? That like we generally aren’t feeling proud of ourselves because we’re in a neurotypical society, navigating neurotypical structures, and it wears on us slowly, sometimes quickly. and so we are going to talk about self-esteem. We are going to talk about the stories and the narratives that you’ve been told that you’ve adopted and maybe don’t fully realize. and so I’ll give my disclaimer that I’m not a licensed therapist.
I’m working as a coach. but I am trained in behavior analysis, have done trainings in acceptance and commitment therapy, so I pull those strategies in, from a skill-based place, right? And so one of those skills coming from the mindfulness literature of notice the thought,
[00:19:40] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:40] Ryan Baker-Barrett: in acceptance and commitment therapy, they talk about diffusion. a thought pops in and training yourself to say, ” I’m having the thought that…” Whatever it may be. “I’m not a good parent.” Is just a thought. It’s not true. It’s not false. just a thought, right? sometimes that’s all the space that we need to regulate, and to work on that self-esteem. other times it’s much more complex and complicated. so we end up using a whole bunch of strategies. but almost every session with a client, that’s something that we talk about. one of the goals that I give them is, I’m gonna be keeping track of how many self-defeating statements you make in our sessions, because by the end, I wanna see those change.
I wanna see that shift where you’re able to say it more “Hey, Ryan, I– the other day, I was having the thought that wasn’t being productive,” instead of, “I’m not a productive person. I’ve always been…” and paying attention to the language that we use to refer to ourselves, has been huge.
[00:20:42] Ying: I really like what you said about, the space around the thought, and that’s what helps us to start getting
[00:20:50] Blending ABA and ACT
[00:20:51] Ying: regulated. I’m really curious about, you were mentioning earlier the behavior analysis and the, ACT, like you kind of blend them together.
I’m really curious about how do you do that.
[00:20:57] Ryan Baker-Barrett: In traditional behavior analysis, I think people think of it as strictly environmental and behavioral manipulations, right? Lash out at someone, there’s a clear trigger, there’s a clear behavior, and then some happens, and that changes our behavior right?
We are more angry and aggressive with people in the future because we got an outcome or we got an outcome that changes that behavior. We’re like, “Ugh, next time I need to be a little bit less aggressive with people.”
[00:21:28] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:29] Ryan Baker-Barrett: acceptance and commitment therapy coming in to say, There’s a very science-based, process happening beyond just that observable behavior, right? okay, this behavior happened, and now the story that I’m telling is I’m an angry person, right? And that narrative then takes control and gives us a rule, right? Because I’m an angry person, I’m going to act angrily. like with ADHD, because I have ADHD, therefore, this is true. And so those thoughts and those rules that we give ourselves then influence the behavior that, like our interactions with other people. In the ADHD framework, we’re going to accommodate,” in behavior analysis, that would be like the environmental manipulations that we might make, Writing is hard for a lot of people with ADHD because of that comorbid, executive function writing overlap. For kids, we can structure writing in a different way to get written output. Pulling from the acceptance and commitment therapy, right? We can also work on the helping the kid recognize what story is being told when, writing breaks down, right? So teacher gives me a writing assignment, I say I’m stupid, and I suck at writing. We have to address both parts of that and not just, let’s find a different way to present the writing and, better written output and problem solved.
No, there’s more that needs to be addressed.
[00:22:57] Ying: I really like that. One of my clients actually were recently discussing it’s not just, getting neurodivergent folks to work as if we’re neurotypical. It’s more so like, what’s the internal experience while we’re working as if we’re neurotypical folks? A lot of times it’s not pleasant, so why are we trying to push ourselves that way?
Yeah, so it’s really radically rethinking how can we reconstruct, the expectations, the environment, and to work with neurodivergent folks better?
[00:23:30] Self Compassion in Practice
[00:23:30] Ying: Yeah.
[00:23:31] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah it’s– So I’m thinking of a recent experience where, I do continuing education for other behavior analysts. And, I really wanna talk about self-compassion with other behavior analysts.
Like we don’t touch, self-compassion and self-esteem, right? but to give them like a clear scientific method approach that yes, this is something that we can and should, especially with ADHD, because it contributes to how they present in the world, be present in the world, And so I had stopped doing webinars before because I hate doing them. It’s so hard for me to give a presentation to a blank and you’re not getting any feedback, right? I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna try this again. I’m gonna practice.” Went into it, totally bombed, right? A lot was going on in the home at the time. Two kids with ADHD having their own end-of-day meltdowns, and then that’s contributing to my own meltdown. I can’t think and focus as I’m giving this presentation, and I just felt like I totally bombed it, And so then after, just you know what? I’m not gonna do this practice anymore. like I’m just gonna go back to work at a regular nine-to-five job. I just don’t have what it takes, and catching myself in the context of giving other people a presentation on being self-compassionate, being very non-self-compassionate as a result. And the training was supposed to be an hour and a half, I just got so frustrated, done.” Is so bad.” off at an hour. and I was like, ” Now I’m gonna have all these mad people that they paid for an hour and a half, now only getting an hour.” And finally, down with myself and saying, “You know what?
You just taught a lesson on self-compassion. Go through the process, on paper that you would give to a client use that to regulate myself.” And then, now that I’m in a better place Like, let’s use that as a teaching opportunity, right? So then I had this opportunity to say, “Okay, I’ve got to record another 30 minutes. make it about how I went through that one hour of content you just watched. 30 minutes of watching me do that for myself.”
[00:25:33] Ying: That’s really brave. that’s hard sometimes to be, that vulnerable and show up. Be like, “I am just a regular human being.”
[00:25:40] Ryan Baker-Barrett: yeah
[00:25:40] Ying: I may practice meditation more, but it doesn’t mean I’m always calm or meditation’s always peaceful
[00:25:46] Ryan Baker-Barrett: with your fingers
[00:25:47] Ying: I’m really, admire that you have the bravery to show up truly as yourself and practice in real time.
[00:25:53] Ryan Baker-Barrett: to other professionals, as someone with ADHD, let me give you a clear picture and example of why we have to do this work and why I’m inviting you to do this work at this deeper, more human and connected level.
[00:26:06] Ying: Hmm.
[00:26:06] Ryan Baker-Barrett: know, because here’s
[00:26:07] Ying: Yeah
[00:26:08] Ryan Baker-Barrett: you may watch that and be like, “Oh, it wasn’t that big of a deal.” It didn’t seem so bad. but the destruction that I did to myself in that process was very real.
[00:26:17] Ying: Yeah
[00:26:18] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Our, clients, our kids, our adults, whoever it is that we’re working with, that’s what they are doing as well.
[00:26:23] Ying: Hmm.
[00:26:23] Ryan Baker-Barrett: we don’t see it happening doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
[00:26:27] Ying: Storytelling in the internal experiences.
And then there’s the visceral feelings when my feelings are very strong, it’s a visceral thing in my body.
[00:26:35] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah.
[00:26:36] Ying: And then, so yeah, it’s very real to me. other people may not see it, but I’m like, “This is as real as anything.”
[00:26:42] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah
[00:26:43] Ying: Yeah.
[00:26:44] Ryan Baker-Barrett: it,” but yes, inside there is a
[00:26:46] Realistic Goals and Skills
[00:26:47] Ying: I’m really curious being regulated or helping you yourself and your kids with ADHD as well as your clients thrive, what does that look like for you? What’s realistic?
[00:26:57] Ryan Baker-Barrett: No, I’m glad to hear you use that word realistic ’cause I find myself using that all the time, let’s be realistic and, talk about what is the level of change that we’re talking about,
[00:27:06] Ying: Ying
[00:27:07] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Come to me and say, I just need my kid to not do this thing anymore.” And to say, with ADHD, that’s not realistic, so let’s shift…” let’s shift how we go through that, and what comes up a lot of times is like, my kid does a lot of impulsive things with his friends, and I just need him not… It’s like ruining the friendships.” The response inhibition to the level that you’re talking about may be beyond this child’s capacity, and that’s not to say that isn’t something that we should work on. We absolutely should, but how we work on it may be different than what you’re imagining, we’re not gonna be telling him like, “You can’t touch other kids.” to say, ” Pay attention to the response that you get.”
[00:27:47] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:47] Ryan Baker-Barrett: if the other kid is pulling back Just say, “Oops.” And sometimes that’s enough to shift the dynamic I’m always impressed with how forgiving kids are. The idea being that Developmentally, that specific behavior is going to improve by virtue of development, like impulsive picking at other kids. But what’s not going to change is that skill acquisition side of it, unless we support and teach that, right? even just thinking of a middle schooler that I worked with, right? He was constantly zoning out and people were like let’s have a goal on his IEP about just not zoning out anymore.”
[00:28:22] Ying: as someone with ADHD, I know that is not realistic, But what is realistic is to notice when you drift off and then, make some kind of a repair, right? “Hey, so sorry, I drifted off a little bit. Can you repeat that?” and then not having the self-judgment “i’m a horrible person because I can’t pay attention to what you’re saying.” And so then the shift becoming like what we’re going to give this kid is a skill of recognizing when it happens and then just acknowledging it without judgment. sometimes that’s all that’s needed, right? And many times people will be compassionate and understanding. There are the jerks in the world But for the most part, like people will respond kindly “Oh, hey, I get it. No biggie. Yeah. So what I’m hearing is, being able to help them, one, is assess if the change expectation is realistic. ‘Cause yeah, like asking ADHD folks to not zone out is probably not very realistic.
[00:29:18] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah
[00:29:18] Ying: It took me so long to realize I was actually zoning out in conversations and not having attentive ADHD, because one of my hyper-focused interests is human beings.
Like, if we’re talking about a human being and how they become who they are, chances are I’m very interested I’m hyper-focusing until I realize, oh, if people are talking about sports or something I don’t care about, I’m zoning out so fast I didn’t realize I was zoning out.
[00:29:43] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah
[00:29:43] Ying: yeah.
[00:29:44] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah.
[00:29:44] Ying: being realistic on the expectation and teaching the skills around noticing with non-judgment and redirecting and choosing the response. Yeah, those are huge.
[00:29:55] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yep.
[00:29:55] Values, Discipline and Routines
[00:29:55] Ying: Awesome.
[00:29:56] Ryan Baker-Barrett: going like a deeper level with my adult clients is talking about the value-driven actions, right? So you said, you really value human connection, human stories, then sometimes our ADHD symptoms, the inattention can pull away from or make it feel like we’re pulling away from that. Or sometimes there’s a conflict what feels like a I really value health and I keep doom scrolling till two AM on my phone and waking up groggy, and then I don’t go to the gym, and so that feels like a conflict sometimes, building that deeper awareness with clients. then sometimes, what will come out like, I had a client talk a lot about, like I do need to get better sleep, but, I got invited to, and so I went, and then I ended up staying out till two AM, and then I was like, so messed up the next day and my ADHD symptoms were just, flaring left and right. And then, to even stop and say, ” What was the value that led to that decision?” Okay, human connection was that value, right? And you’re judging yourself for having made that decision ignoring, that very real human connection happened there. And is that something that you can accommodate into your– like sometimes like staying up till two AM is fun and necessary in the human experience.
if you have an exam the next day, maybe don’t do that. But, as we’re trying to establish yes, we want healthy goals, but when we focus on the values behind those goals, are able to see more clearly what we want to be accomplishing.
[00:31:30] Ying: I’m curious how, in the acceptance commitment therapy lens, how do they view, discipline and routines? Those are things a lot of ADHD folks struggle with. what are some insights on that.
[00:31:44] Ryan Baker-Barrett: I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about outsiders may look at you and say you’re a very disciplined person, but on the inside, you might have these incredibly high expectations for yourself, right? Like you’re gonna go to bed at 9:00 PM, you’re gonna eat this healthy meal, right? And you’re failing every single one of those and it can feel like, wow, I’m not disciplined. the people on the outside aren’t experiencing all that like we are, so they just see what’s on the outside and good job, good pay, always put together, or sometimes not, but yeah, these stories that we tell ourselves sometimes are always accurate. But when we take a look at our chemistry, our biology, right? What is disciplined for me as someone with ADHD is very different, For neurotypical person and, for me to stick to a routine requires a higher level of energy and effort. And just recognizing that for yourself that given your biology, there are some things that don’t come easier to you. And appreciating that what can look like lack of discipline to other people is actually very strong discipline.
[00:32:54] Ying: It’s like recognizing routines are more difficult for ADHD folks, and that’s why I suggest to my clients to have minimal step routines, ’cause it goes back to what routines are for. For neurotypical folks, routines help them to reduce the energy spent on decision-making, makes their life run smoother. But
[00:33:14] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:14] Ying: it sometimes is the opposite for ADHD folks. If we have an elaborate routine, that’s a lot of things we have to remember, I always come back to, what’s the need? how can we satisfy the need in a energy conservative kind of way?
[00:33:27] Ryan Baker-Barrett: I think one of the clearest ways to illustrate that is with sleep, right? We know through research that ADHD brains have very different sleep chemistry and biology. sometimes that neurotypical expectation of, early to bed, early to rise, must be in bed by ten PM, my clients will say does that work for your biology?” Like what actually does work for your biology and, I know that we can’t, always dictate when the workday starts, but many times we’re– ADHD people are creative and entrepreneurs, and they’re not in traditional jobs anyway.
And what works for your biology and it is okay to have a different structure around routines.
[00:34:10] Ying: Yeah. I vote for night owls to take over the world. I wholeheartedly, wish that day comes.
[00:34:15] Hopeful ADHD Narratives
[00:34:15] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah.
[00:34:16] Ying: since we’re coming towards the end, are there any things you haven’t covered that you really want to cover before I ask what are some stories and narratives you wish to see in the ADHD community that may, bring a different sense of possibilities?
[00:34:30] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Parenting my kids, I knew I had ADHD, and I knew they had ADHD. For many parents Maybe they didn’t know they had ADHD or they don’t have ADHD, but their kids do, and the weight that diagnosis can bring. my hope, is really that ADHD, autism, whatever the diagnosis could just be more factual my son and he has brown hair and brown eyes.” It’s a fact that doesn’t have any thought or judgment attached to it. It’s just a fact, I don’t know that we’ll ever get there but I think that’s work that we can do as a community is that diagnosis doesn’t have to feel so heavy. and that’s part of my hope with every client is as they understand their ADHD, that the weight of it doesn’t hold them back,
[00:35:18] Ying: mm-hmm.
[00:35:19] Ryan Baker-Barrett: say to the ten-year-old kid can have any job in the world that you want. Your ADHD is not going to prevent that. can be any
[00:35:26] Ying: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:26] Ryan Baker-Barrett: that you want to be, and ADHD is not going to prevent that.” Yes, we have to approach life differently, but that’s true of
[00:35:33] Ying: Hmm.
[00:35:34] Ryan Baker-Barrett: many people, many experiences that is the human aspect of life, and I’m here for it. You’re here for it.
[00:35:41] Ying: I love that.
[00:35:42] Ryan Baker-Barrett: this life.
[00:35:43] Ying: I always say my ADHD brain impact a lot of things in my life, and my ADHD brain is not all of me. I am bigger than
[00:35:53] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Yeah,
[00:35:53] Ying: Yeah.
[00:35:54] Ryan Baker-Barrett: think even to realize that ADHD can also be this really cool vantage point that gives you a unique edge on the world right? And I was working with a younger kiddo, and I don’t like that I hyperfocus.” I’m like, “There’s gonna be a time in your life where you appreciate that you can hyperfocus because you’ll recognize that gives you such a competitive advantage over ninety-nine percent of the population.” And so it’s about, learning to to control that superpower as opposed to feeling guilty and ashamed that you can’t always choose what pulls your brain in. and like these are the kids that are gonna become specialists in really cool scientific discoveries or, technological advancements, and let’s appreciate that together, right?
[00:36:43] Ying: that
[00:36:43] Ryan Baker-Barrett: It’s an advantage
[00:36:45] Ying: So being able to help them see that ADHD has the strength side as well, like the creative problem-solving, the divergent thinking, witty creative,
[00:36:55] Final Thanks and Outro
[00:36:55] Ying: Absolutely. Any final words
[00:36:57] Ryan Baker-Barrett: I am glad to have this conversation. It’s been, a boost. Not that I felt down but taken me from where I’m at and elevated me. So I appreciate that, and I’m glad to be here and have this discussion
[00:37:09] Ying: Yeah. I appreciate the work you do introducing the self-compassion to other practitioners who may not be so key on love and self-compassion. I’m from the meditation mindfulness world. Love is a big part of what we need.
It may not be all of what we need, but love is a big part.
[00:37:26] Ryan Baker-Barrett: Borrowing from RuPaul, if you can’t love yourself, how in the hell are you gonna love anybody else?
[00:37:30] Ying: Thank you for tuning in to ADHD Gathering. If this episode spoke to you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. You never know whose landscape it might open up.
And if you’re ready to go deeper, come find me.
There’s a link in the show notes to book a free discovery call. I would love to connect.
Until next time, take good care of your ecosystem.
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